Today on Chicken Chat, I will be examining the question of whether or not sand is a good litter to use in the coop, and run, not so much the brooder, since I don't raise those fuzzy little peeps. Now dear reader, make yourself comfy and get ready to learn something!
and! I think most of us are familiar with sand right? At some point in our lives we've either had its sugary grains squish between our toes as we've walked along the sea shore, or we've sifted its fine grit through our fingers in the play ground sand box, but what about placing sand in your chickens' habitat? There is quite a lot of controversy regarding this tiny granule being used within the confines of chicken coops, runs, and brooders isn't there? I myself was faced with the decision as to whether or not I should use it, so I did some careful research before going gung-ho. This seemingly simple material is anything but simple, as you will soon see.
Think Before You Act
Before you do anything in regards to animal husbandry, you really should read up on the issue at hand, and not just from one source that is biased one way or another. So before you even think about placing sand and your chickens together, reading up on it and weighting all the pros and cons is essential to avoid costly mistakes and even worse, the loss of your pet or lively hood. This is what this article is about, considering all those little facts and common sense issues, and then weighing them in the scale of decision. Because as most of us have learned, what works for somebody, may not work for another. There are variables to consider. Here we go....
What Is Sand?
First, I think we need to understand what exactly is "sand." Basically it's naturally weathered and/or mechanically crushed up rocks like feldspar and quartz and other minerals, such as ferrous oxide, magnesium, and calcium carbonate, and even fossilized sea creatures. You will find sand by bodies of water, or in deserts, which are dry ancient seas according to geologists, and even near rock formations. There is even sharp and smooth sand, and natural or synthetic sand. So it follows that just as there are many different types of rocks, there is also many different types of sand. As if that wasn't enough to boggle the mind, the differences don't end at what type of rock they once were, or their granular composition, but also by the size of their granules. For the buffs of forensic type shows, if I'm not mistaken, there are no less then 6 different types of beach sand, and the origin of a particular type of beach sand can be found by examining its contents, who knew?
There are even sands that can contain only one type of crushed up rock, or some that have as many as 20 different types of tiny rocks and minerals within them, all of different sizes and proportions of materials, it is just amazing! So knowing this, it is safe to say that not all sand is good for every application that calls for it. For instance, though concrete contains sand, it is not good to use beach sand, because the sand itself may be too uniform in grain size and the salt content in beach sand also weakens the mortar. There are also types of sand that are better than others at making molds in foundries and other factories. See my point? So surly, there is a type of sand that is better for using with your chickens right? Hold your horses, I'm getting there, just hold on a bit longer, we still have to investigate sand itself a little more.
The Phi (Φ) Scale of Sand
I'll bet many of you didn't know that there is something called the Phi Scale that measures the grain size of dirt, all the way up from clay particles to boulders, right? Well why would that be important regarding putting sand in a chicken coop, or run? It's very important if you want to avoid putting you and your birds at risk of contracting silicosis, which is a nasty respiratory condition where fine silica particles make mincemeat of lung tissue from long term exposure and inhalation. Chickens do create clouds of dust when they scratch, and you will do the same when you scoop the poop, but then dirt floors would be just as risky since clay particles are much finer than larger sand particles.
However, any sand that is smaller than 0.5-0.25 mm (medium grain sand) would most likely start causing problems with respiratory function, like play sand, which has a much smaller grain size then construction sand.
Not many bags of sand from your local home improvement stores have the Phi Scale information printed on them other than maybe the grain size being stated as fine, medium, or course, and don't count on the sales people knowing any of this stuff. Sands that are course (1.0-0.5 mm), and very course (2.0-1.0 mm) would be less of a risk for your birds and you. Any dust that is washed from the highly recommended construction sand, is actually silt and clay particles. These particles will inhibit the making of strong concrete, so they are washed out before the construction sand is bagged. Therefore, any subsequent dust would be from the breaking down of the remaining sand grains through mechanical means of crushing the bags during moving and stacking. The resulting dust would be from the quartz, silica, feldspar, mica, all of which are things not good to breathe. So you may have to rewash it just to get rid of any silica dust.
Granular size will also have an "impact" on a chicken's crop, especially little chicks.
I have read many a sad story where chickens and chicks have eaten a little too much fine sand and have suffered from an impacted crop. Is this the norm? Not necessarily, but it is a risk you should know about and consider. So if you are set on using sand, then just keep a close eye on your little balls of fluff and even on the crop health of the larger fluffy fannies in your flock.
However, any sand that is smaller than 0.5-0.25 mm (medium grain sand) would most likely start causing problems with respiratory function, like play sand, which has a much smaller grain size then construction sand.
Not many bags of sand from your local home improvement stores have the Phi Scale information printed on them other than maybe the grain size being stated as fine, medium, or course, and don't count on the sales people knowing any of this stuff. Sands that are course (1.0-0.5 mm), and very course (2.0-1.0 mm) would be less of a risk for your birds and you. Any dust that is washed from the highly recommended construction sand, is actually silt and clay particles. These particles will inhibit the making of strong concrete, so they are washed out before the construction sand is bagged. Therefore, any subsequent dust would be from the breaking down of the remaining sand grains through mechanical means of crushing the bags during moving and stacking. The resulting dust would be from the quartz, silica, feldspar, mica, all of which are things not good to breathe. So you may have to rewash it just to get rid of any silica dust.
Granular size will also have an "impact" on a chicken's crop, especially little chicks.
I have read many a sad story where chickens and chicks have eaten a little too much fine sand and have suffered from an impacted crop. Is this the norm? Not necessarily, but it is a risk you should know about and consider. So if you are set on using sand, then just keep a close eye on your little balls of fluff and even on the crop health of the larger fluffy fannies in your flock.
Physical Performance of Sand
We need to consider how sand generally performs in certain conditions like heat, cold, wet and dry conditions and then ascertain if it is a good material to use around poultry that are specifically in your area. Yes, your climate can effect whether or not sand is a good choice as a coop, or run material.
Sand in general:
Now that we know the general properties and uses of sand, now we can apply that to specifics, such as chicken keeping.
Sand in general:
- is a poor insulator as it absorbs high amounts of heat and doesn't hold on to it.
- quickly loses moisture in high heat situations and wicks away minimal amounts of water in lower temperatures, especially if it is over concrete.
- holds moisture in the presence of large amounts of water, especially when mixed with clay and silt.
- contains silica which doesn't decompose further into becoming silt or clay soil.
- is a cheap fill material for industrial uses, such as making molds, allowing for drainage and filtration applications, and in the making of concrete.
Now that we know the general properties and uses of sand, now we can apply that to specifics, such as chicken keeping.
Poor Insulator
Chickens, like most creatures on this earth, require heat to stay warm, and cooling to keep from over heating. Since sand is a poor insulator (it's hot in sun and cold in shade), does it make sense to use it in cold wet climates? Maybe not. I don't know at what temperature chickens experience frost bite on their tootsies, but you should be made aware of this possibility as sand used in runs where wet frigid winter conditions are the norm, so that tidbit of info may influence your decision. Unless of course your plan on making snow shoes for your birds, or your coop is large enough to house all of your birds comfortably, without going stir crazy, in their nice warm coop right? Well, again, since heat rises, the sand floor of the indoor coop is going to still be rather cold, as long as it is dry, you'll be fine. But I'd put a heat lamp nearer the floor rather than higher up just to be sure the sand is warm, but not too warm.
Speaking of too warm, what about the opposite extreme of hot dry climates? I don't know about you, but I have experienced the torture of tip toeing through hot beach sand- - not a fun thing to do. If your chicken run is uncovered, or not shaded by trees, then sand in your chicken run is not a wise choice for obvious reasons, unless you plan on inventing chicken flip-flops to keep their feet off the hot sand. Really, this will hold true for any climate where the run isn't shaded. Sand accumulates a large amount of heat, and darker sand much more so, than lighter colored sand. If you want sand, then cover your run.
In my research, moisture is the deciding factor when it comes to heat and cold comfort and moisture even bears on the performance of insulation materials. Most insulation doesn't perform well once wet, except for the natural fibers of wool; this is due to the fiber's natural water and oil content, and its compression resiliency, and sand doesn't have any of these traits. Ehhh.....but I don't think that using wool as a bedding material is going to happen anytime soon.
Anyway, when moisture is present in hot conditions, evaporation occurs and thus, produces a cooling effect. But when all moisture is gone, the temperature starts to climb. However, a highly humid climate mixed with either heat, or cold is a problem too. When you have high humidity and heat, evaporation, and therefore cooling is hindered. In a cold and we climate, it is hard to get and stay warm if you get wet, since it takes more energy to heat water than air - - does this make any sense? So what does all of this have to do with using sand in your run and coop? Plenty! If you are going to use sand in your run, or coop in areas that experience extreme temperature fluctuations, and moisture issues, then you had better be prepared to adjust your run and coop's climate accordingly with the use of proper ventilation, insulation, water diversion, as well as temperature and humidity controls.
And what about when your little hens dig down into the sand looking for relief from a hot day? Soil (especially clay soil) will hold moister longer in a hot climate better than sand and therefore cool your birds better. Remember, sand wicks away moisture and unless you wet down the sand daily on hot days, or unless your run is covered, it won't be very cool when they dig down into it. But if they hit pay dirt - or moist clay soil, then that would be fine. So how is sand looking so far? Well, let's continue on with the subject of moisture.
Speaking of too warm, what about the opposite extreme of hot dry climates? I don't know about you, but I have experienced the torture of tip toeing through hot beach sand- - not a fun thing to do. If your chicken run is uncovered, or not shaded by trees, then sand in your chicken run is not a wise choice for obvious reasons, unless you plan on inventing chicken flip-flops to keep their feet off the hot sand. Really, this will hold true for any climate where the run isn't shaded. Sand accumulates a large amount of heat, and darker sand much more so, than lighter colored sand. If you want sand, then cover your run.
In my research, moisture is the deciding factor when it comes to heat and cold comfort and moisture even bears on the performance of insulation materials. Most insulation doesn't perform well once wet, except for the natural fibers of wool; this is due to the fiber's natural water and oil content, and its compression resiliency, and sand doesn't have any of these traits. Ehhh.....but I don't think that using wool as a bedding material is going to happen anytime soon.
Anyway, when moisture is present in hot conditions, evaporation occurs and thus, produces a cooling effect. But when all moisture is gone, the temperature starts to climb. However, a highly humid climate mixed with either heat, or cold is a problem too. When you have high humidity and heat, evaporation, and therefore cooling is hindered. In a cold and we climate, it is hard to get and stay warm if you get wet, since it takes more energy to heat water than air - - does this make any sense? So what does all of this have to do with using sand in your run and coop? Plenty! If you are going to use sand in your run, or coop in areas that experience extreme temperature fluctuations, and moisture issues, then you had better be prepared to adjust your run and coop's climate accordingly with the use of proper ventilation, insulation, water diversion, as well as temperature and humidity controls.
And what about when your little hens dig down into the sand looking for relief from a hot day? Soil (especially clay soil) will hold moister longer in a hot climate better than sand and therefore cool your birds better. Remember, sand wicks away moisture and unless you wet down the sand daily on hot days, or unless your run is covered, it won't be very cool when they dig down into it. But if they hit pay dirt - or moist clay soil, then that would be fine. So how is sand looking so far? Well, let's continue on with the subject of moisture.
Moisture Retention of Sand
Chickens need a mostly dry environment to stay healthy. Sand has the ability to either be a good dispersal medium of water, or it can actually hold lots of water just depending on how much water is present and how the sand is applied, or contained, and how much silt, or dirt is in it. This is one of the reason's why washed construction sand is recommended in the coop. Sand itself is not porous and so it doesn't really "absorb" water, rather it wicks water away via water's surface tension that causes it to coat the surface of the sand and it also fills the empty space between the grains causing the sand to expand, thus making it seem like it absorbs water. This is what makes it a good medium for evaporating water quickly, for drainage and filtering, depending on its grain size, and ironically, is also why it is used to help hold back flood waters. Sand bags work because flood waters contain mud which gets trapped in the tiny spaces between the sand grains, this coupled with water's surface tension, the bag's contents (sand, clay, and silt) expands, until it reached a point of saturation. Sandbags will buy you time, but they don't provide complete water proofing. They also hold in a lot of waste material if you know what I mean.
Knowing all of this, depending on your situation, sand can be a life saver, or a nightmare. If you're not able to fix a perpetual wet spot in your run due to inclement weather conditions, or if your coop has sprung a leak, sand will buy you time until you can fix it properly. Sand, like duct tape, is a temporary fix, not the end all solution to a chronic moisture problem. Remember how I said that sandbags hold waste material? Well, all that sand in your coop and run has accumulated chicken poo particles, right? Eventually over time, it will start to stink, especially when it gets wet. Sure, this may not happen as quickly for those who free range their birds, those who live in a drier climate, and who are vigilant in their poop scooping, but for those who keep their birds in the run, live in a more humid climate, or are lazy with their poop scooping, then this will be a much bigger issue. Did your favorite chicken expert that sings the praises of sand tell you any of this? I doubt it. Again, sand may not be right for you, so consider well. Moving on.
Knowing all of this, depending on your situation, sand can be a life saver, or a nightmare. If you're not able to fix a perpetual wet spot in your run due to inclement weather conditions, or if your coop has sprung a leak, sand will buy you time until you can fix it properly. Sand, like duct tape, is a temporary fix, not the end all solution to a chronic moisture problem. Remember how I said that sandbags hold waste material? Well, all that sand in your coop and run has accumulated chicken poo particles, right? Eventually over time, it will start to stink, especially when it gets wet. Sure, this may not happen as quickly for those who free range their birds, those who live in a drier climate, and who are vigilant in their poop scooping, but for those who keep their birds in the run, live in a more humid climate, or are lazy with their poop scooping, then this will be a much bigger issue. Did your favorite chicken expert that sings the praises of sand tell you any of this? I doubt it. Again, sand may not be right for you, so consider well. Moving on.
Decomposition/Compost
Chicken poo, more precisely, composted chicken poo, is a great source of nutrients for your garden! As for poopy sand, well, you can certainly add some sand to your compost pile, but sand does not fully decompose. Minerals in sand such as feldspar and mica will eventually break down and turn into clay minerals, but quartz and silica do not, they remain in their granular form. Garden experts (like Pat Welch) say that sand by itself doesn't make your clay soil lighter, but adding organic matter, such as compost, does lighten clay soil. And you can never harm clay soil by adding too much compost, but you can harm your soil by adding too much sand! Remember, sand doesn't break down all the way, and contains silica which is a major component of concrete, so when you over burden your clay soil with too much sand (fine or course), over 50% by volume, it will cause problems; you could end up with soil that resembles concrete. This seemingly logical solution to lightening heavy clay soil with sand has ruined many a garden, and according to June's addition of This Old House Magazine pg. 48 in the article titled: "Gardening Myth's Busted" we are given the reason why.
"The tiny clay particles simply fill in the gaps between the sand grains, resulting in a substance similar to concrete. If you want to improve clay, the secret ingredient is compost, not sand."
The Chicken Chick® (I name names when necessary) claims that sand can be added to compost to amend it. Here we go. You can do anything, but the real question is should you? In this case...."Uh.... no Kathy. No, you see, compost is an amendment, so it doesn't need amending." Does she mean that you should compost the sand that has had a year's worth of nasty e-coli laden chicken poop scooped from it? Well, let's see what she says regarding the many benefits of sand:
- "no decomposition required in compost pile/great soil amendment to compost"
Possible Vehicle for E-coli?
E-coli is a gram-negative, facultatively anaerobic, rod-shaped bacterium of the genus Escherichia that is commonly found in the lower intestine of warm-blooded organisms, according to Wikipedia. So guess what? Anything that is pooped on can harbor e-coli, including straw, shavings and sand, so this seems like a mute point all the way around. No matter what litter you use, the presence of e-coli looms large, however, it is well known that the process of composting kills this pathogen, and many other pathogens due to the heat generated in this process. But since a certain chicken expert says you don't need to compost sand, then that must mean it's safe, right? I don't think so. For me, sand obviously loses this round, unless you have acres and acres of land to process yards and yards of poopy sand in many sandy compost piles, or through a "poopy sand wash" station.
Along the same line, I have also read that some of the fabulous things about sand are that the coop and run stay so clean and sanitary, and how easy it is to take care of with a kitty box scooper, or a pitchfork wrapped with hardware cloth . These do seem like great benefits, right? Well, I seriously doubt that the run and coop are as clean and sanitary as they appear to be. Even scooping kitty litter has taught me that small poop bits break off the bigger chunks and remain in the litter box even after meticulous scooping, and the birds themselves don't avoid walking all over their steamy piles of poo, they stomp them into smaller pieces into the sand. Another scary thought .... dear reader, you do realize that the cash in your wallet, though fairly crisp, may not have (forgive me) visible poop smears on it, but nevertheless, there are microscopic traces of fecal matter on dollar bills.
As for the claims of easy maintenance and neat appearance, well, did you get chickens because you felt it would be easy and not messy? Taking care of animals has it challenges, and messes to deal with. I'm all for ease and neatness, but that should not be the sole reason for adopting any method of keeping animals.
For example, I saw an episode of 'The Incredible Dr. Pol' where a seasoned farmer thought it would be easier for him to feed his cattle earlier in the evening, rather than later. As a result they all got sick, because the time between the last evening meal and the morning meal was too long. Dr. Pol was not impressed with his new and easy feeding method. So here we have a real life example of what is easy and best for you, isn't better for your animals. This may apply to the use of sand...so consider it well.
Along the same line, I have also read that some of the fabulous things about sand are that the coop and run stay so clean and sanitary, and how easy it is to take care of with a kitty box scooper, or a pitchfork wrapped with hardware cloth . These do seem like great benefits, right? Well, I seriously doubt that the run and coop are as clean and sanitary as they appear to be. Even scooping kitty litter has taught me that small poop bits break off the bigger chunks and remain in the litter box even after meticulous scooping, and the birds themselves don't avoid walking all over their steamy piles of poo, they stomp them into smaller pieces into the sand. Another scary thought .... dear reader, you do realize that the cash in your wallet, though fairly crisp, may not have (forgive me) visible poop smears on it, but nevertheless, there are microscopic traces of fecal matter on dollar bills.
As for the claims of easy maintenance and neat appearance, well, did you get chickens because you felt it would be easy and not messy? Taking care of animals has it challenges, and messes to deal with. I'm all for ease and neatness, but that should not be the sole reason for adopting any method of keeping animals.
For example, I saw an episode of 'The Incredible Dr. Pol' where a seasoned farmer thought it would be easier for him to feed his cattle earlier in the evening, rather than later. As a result they all got sick, because the time between the last evening meal and the morning meal was too long. Dr. Pol was not impressed with his new and easy feeding method. So here we have a real life example of what is easy and best for you, isn't better for your animals. This may apply to the use of sand...so consider it well.
Other Things To Consider
Some other things to consider when deciding whether or not to use sand are:
All of these question will contribute as to whether or not sand is the right choice for you.
- Will, or do your chickens currently free range most of the year?
- Will, or do your chickens stay in their run only?
- How many chickens will, or do you have?
- Will, or do you have more than enough room for them in the run and coop without going postal?
- Are you a fastidious, moderate, or lazy poop manager?
All of these question will contribute as to whether or not sand is the right choice for you.
Experts That Recommend Sand
There are many chicken keeping experts out there, like the afore mentioned The Chicken Chick®, who in particular, calls sand "the litter superstar." And they, like her, extol the virtues of sand to the point that their pro's column far exceeds that of their con's column. She seriously has 18 pro's and only 2 con's in her article. Hmmm, that seems so incredible to me. How did something like sand go so long, being largely unused by past generations of chicken keepers, if in fact it's so great as bedding material? So does that mean that there are really only a couple of con's for bringing sand into your coop and run? To me, it just means that this medium works for them, but that doesn't mean it will be "the litter superstar" for others.
And because of that, I think it is highly irresponsible for people like The Chicken Chick® and other sand "yes men" to not give a thorough break down and a more honest and balanced pro's and con's list for using sand as litter. Experts must understand their responsibility to those who look to them for advice, and some don't, and some even block you from commenting on their site if you disagree with them. Right Kathy?
And because of that, I think it is highly irresponsible for people like The Chicken Chick® and other sand "yes men" to not give a thorough break down and a more honest and balanced pro's and con's list for using sand as litter. Experts must understand their responsibility to those who look to them for advice, and some don't, and some even block you from commenting on their site if you disagree with them. Right Kathy?
"You've Been Blocked From Commenting..."
After I read account, after account of sand users here in So.Cal.(read Lianne's story here) that were experiencing putrid odors coming from their coops laid with sand over concrete (after winter rains) and the difficulty they had in getting rid of it, I was starting to reconsider using it. But since I wanted to use sand, I just filed the information away and kept searching. Then I found The Chicken Chick's® article, and to my amazement, no mention of these problems were on her con's list, so you know me, I had to comment and tell her how irresponsible I felt she was for recommending sand with out doing more research. Even I, a lowly beginner, ran into many negative experiences with using sand by other chicken keepers, from novices like me, to veterans.
Surely, Lianne could not have been the only one who found sand to be a bad choice at the time Kathy wrote her article extolling the virtues of sand. Do you know what happened after I entered my comment? She blocked me from commenting on her site. Really??? Yes, really. I didn't use four letter words, nor was I verbally abusive, even so, I'm not allowed to comment anymore. Ya know, I have found that there are people these days who have very thin skins. They simply can't handle the slightest hint of what they consider to be "negativity" in the form of criticism, constructive or otherwise. And as if that isn't bad enough, the harbinger of "negativity" is then usually labeled as a "cyber bully."
Surely, Lianne could not have been the only one who found sand to be a bad choice at the time Kathy wrote her article extolling the virtues of sand. Do you know what happened after I entered my comment? She blocked me from commenting on her site. Really??? Yes, really. I didn't use four letter words, nor was I verbally abusive, even so, I'm not allowed to comment anymore. Ya know, I have found that there are people these days who have very thin skins. They simply can't handle the slightest hint of what they consider to be "negativity" in the form of criticism, constructive or otherwise. And as if that isn't bad enough, the harbinger of "negativity" is then usually labeled as a "cyber bully."
In my humble opinion (Kathy), if you are going to give advice, then you need to be able to take criticism along with the praise. If you can't handle criticism, or people disagreeing with you, then don't give advice. I can only wonder how many people she has blocked from her site and then erased their comments. At any rate, I won't be going on her site anymore...why bother if I'm not welcome, besides I feel that she is thin skinned and more importantly, irresponsible. Thankfully, there are indeed a gazillion other chicken experts out there who give great information via good research, are prompt with their advice, and have thick skins ta boot!
I just hope those who blindly follow her irresponsible and one dimensional advice don't experience any adverse effects. But what about those who do bring sand into their run, coop, and brooder only to find it's not the superstar litter they were told it was? All I can say is that anyone taking on the responsibility of raising animals needs to accept liability in adopting any practice they use, even though an "expert" recommended it. You must make the best educated decision you can with as much information as you can gather. But there are people who don't have the patients to research and think for themselves, so they put their good faith in the 'expert.' I'm not saying that to be snotty, it's simply the truth.
I just hope those who blindly follow her irresponsible and one dimensional advice don't experience any adverse effects. But what about those who do bring sand into their run, coop, and brooder only to find it's not the superstar litter they were told it was? All I can say is that anyone taking on the responsibility of raising animals needs to accept liability in adopting any practice they use, even though an "expert" recommended it. You must make the best educated decision you can with as much information as you can gather. But there are people who don't have the patients to research and think for themselves, so they put their good faith in the 'expert.' I'm not saying that to be snotty, it's simply the truth.
What I Finally Decided On
Rather than using sand, pine shavings, or news paper, (all mediums that have their pros and cons) I opted for straw in the coop, and dirt in the run. I know... The Chicken Chick® is probably rolling her baby blues right now as she reads this, right? (wink)
Why straw?
Why straw?
- Because I can afford it.
- I like the smell of it (especially after I add my herbal potpourri to it).
- The poop still dries out in it, so that tells me straw must wick away some moisture, and I'm sure our hot and dry climate helps, no doubt.
- It composts beautifully.
- And believe it or not, when it does get cold here in SoCal, the straw is a great insulator. If any of it gets wet, then all I do is take out the wet part and add dry straw - done deal.
Yesiree dear reader, until our hens learn to use the dunny, we need to choose what type of litter to use in our bird's coops, runs, and brooders. Those who are trying to decided whether or not sand is the best material for your coop, run, or brooder, then I hope this article has at least given you some food for thought and I admonish you to do your homework and consider well before you act, so you can make a more informed decision. And for even more excellent information on this subject, Lisa from Fresh Eggs Daily® has written a great article, which tempers the Chicken Chicks® vastly skewed pros list, because Lisa also has many other points and facts to share that were not covered by Kathy or myself. Hey, I can't know it all, right? And the best part is that if you disagree with Lisa's information and advice-- guess what? She won't block you, and neither will I!
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